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Thread: Un nou procesor pentru Xbox One: mai mic, mai rece si mai iute

  1. #1 SP
    Cons. Mercedes-Benz djleo666's Avatar

    Un nou procesor pentru Xbox One: mai mic, mai rece si mai iute

    Asa cum spune titlul ce ne duce cu gandul la Fast & Furious, se pare ca vom avea nn nou procesor pentru Xbox One - mai mic, mai rece si mai performant. Si cand spuneam ca alte noutati nu vom mai primi in aceasta toamna din partea Microsoft tocmai am gasit asta: unul din designerii de chipuri ai AMD (mai precis AMD's senior manager of SOC - system on chip physical design) declara pe pagina de LinkedIn ca tocmai au reusit miniaturizarea procesorului care motorizeaza consola Xbox One de la 28 nm la 20 nm. Asta inseamna deja o cantitate mai mica de caldura, un cost de fabricatie mai mic, exista sansa ca sa fie si la o frecventa putin mai mare si lasa loc de primele speculatii ale unei variante slim.

    Biografia este data in citatul mai jos de pa pagina de LinkedIn:
    Quote:
    Senior SOC Physical Design Manager
    AMD
    Public Company; 10,001+ employees; AMD; Semiconductors industry
    November 2010 – Present (4 years)
    Currently managing a global team of 80+ PMTS, SMTS, MTS, Senior and Junior Engineers for the XBOX One APU with a planning horizon of 12-24 months.
    • Successfully planned and executed the first APU for Microsoft’s XBOX One Game Console in 28nm technology and a cost-reduced derivative in 20nm technology.
    • Drove technical management to support project teams across multiple geographic locations simultaneously including internal IP, CAD and RTL teams to meet the project schedule.
    • Operated as the Physical Design interface to the Microsoft XBOX team resulting in an excellent relationship that has aided in contract negotiations and conflict resolution between the two companies.
    • Developed secure flows for customer specific secure IP. This flow was executed on the original product and was then carried forward to 2 successive SOCs.
    • Aggressively drove down product costs through area saving initiatives like increased tile utilization and working with IP’s to reduce area, resulting in several million dollars of savings over the ASIC lifetime.
    • Assembled and grew two cross-site execution teams for 2 successive XBOX APU revisions. This included developing key technical leads into senior positions allowing for successful execution and future team expansion to handle more SOCs.
    • Regularly presented program status to AMD and Microsoft senior executives, communicating risk mitigation plans to keep the project on schedule.
    Intreg articolul este citat in randurile urmatoare si preluat de pe Eurogamer.net. Va doresc lectura placuta!
    Chip designer AMD has developed a smaller, more cost-effective 20nm version of the main processor found in Xbox One, opening the door to a cheaper 'slim' version of the Microsoft console. The news comes from the LinkedIn bio of AMD's senior manager of SOC (system on chip) physical design, as discovered by Mosen from the Beyond3D forums. The entry in question says he "successfully planned and executed the first APU for Microsoft's Xbox One Game Console in 28nm technology and a cost-reduced derivative in 20nm technology."

    Technology becomes smaller and more powerful according to the density of transistors crammed onto a piece of silicon, with production processes measured at the nanometre level. Currently, the Xbox One and PS4 processors are fabricated at 28nm, meaning each transistor measures 28 thousand-millionths of a metre. The new chip design shrinks that to 20nm. According to TSMC (Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company) - the factory that physically makes the Xbox One and PS4 processors - shrinking down the same chip provides 30 per cent higher speed or 25 per cent less power than the existing processor, at 1.9 times the density.

    The main processor inside Xbox One is one of its most expensive components, with the current 28nm version estimated to cost Microsoft something in the region of $50 per chip. Physically reducing the size by 1.9x means more processors can fit onto the silicon wafers used in production, lowering costs. We can safely assume Microsoft's objectives with the revised processor will be to provide exactly the same performance as the current model (a 30 per cent performance boost offered by the smaller chip is an intriguing thought, but unlikely to materialise), while the reduced power consumption makes for a cooler, more efficient console.

    This opens the door to a much smaller cooling assembly and a thinner chassis, which in turn leads to cost benefits throughout the whole manufacturing and distribution process - smaller consoles means less packaging, meaning cost savings in physically shipping the units out from China to retail markets worldwide.
    Meanwhile, Microsoft is also looking at other ways to streamline the Xbox One design. The company appears to be investigating new memory technologies, advertising for an electrical engineer (thanks again, Mosen) whose responsibilities include "development of the memory subsystem" and evaluating "different solution options for performance, functionality, stability, cost and risk for the memory subsystem within the platform."

    Microsoft is specifically looking for someone with familiarity of existing DDR3 and DDR4 memory technology, suggesting that this position is more about revising the current-gen Xbox as opposed to developing any successor. Top-end 2133MHz DDR3 is currently utilised in Xbox One, but a move across to DDR4 makes sense when the time is right - if only for reasons of economy - although making the switch would require considerable engineering effort. Another option is a move to lower-voltage LPDDR3 - this offers high-density memory modules, meaning fewer of them would be required, allowing for a smaller motherboard. However, this technology is considerably more expensive than Microsoft's current choice - RAM availability is plentiful, but acquiring modules that could run at 2133MHz wouldn't be easy. LPDDR3 seems like a viable mid-term option, while we suspect that any potential move onto DDR4 RAM is years away.

    However, with the cost-reduced design of the main Xbox One processor complete, production economics are the only thing stopping Microsoft from creating a 20nm-powered 'Xbox One Slim' right now. Newer chip fabrication technologies are notoriously expensive in their early years as the number of usable processors gleaned from each silicon wafer (the "yield") is very low. There's also a question of capacity. Right now, it's believed that the majority of TSMC's 20nm production line is occupied creating the A8 and A8X processors used in the iPhone 6, 6 Plus and iPad Air 2. Behind Apple, AMD and Nvidia are waiting for access to 20nm technology in order to power their next-gen PC graphics cards, due in 2015.
    The move from one production node to another historically takes much longer on console, as existing production technologies become more reliable (meaning a higher chip yield per wafer). However, it's clear AMD has incorporated measures into both Xbox One and PS4 processors to make the transition onto small fabrication technologies faster this time around. On the silicon itself, the graphics portion of the processor features a full 14 compute units on Xbox One and 20 on PlayStation 4. In both cases, two compute units are disabled on the final retail units in order to increase production yield.

    The 28nm production process was very mature by the time the new wave of consoles went into production, meaning there was probably little need to disable any part of the chip on either console. Indeed, in our Xbox One architects interview, the team discussed with us how they could enable the full 14 compute unit graphics hardware on development systems for testing purposes. However, deactivating those parts of the chip means the technology should be able to transition across to 20nm more quickly - the production yield per wafer increases as the chips don't need to be absolutely perfect. In short, both the Xbox One and PS4 processors were designed to be cheap to produce on current 28nm production technology, but flexible enough to move across to more advanced fabrication nodes more quickly than their predecessors.

    It's worth pointing out that while there's been no official acknowledgement of a 20nm version of the PS4's main processor, it's almost certain AMD will have carried out the same work for Sony as it has for Microsoft. A PS4 Slim is just as inevitable as a downscaled, cheaper Xbox One, but we should only expect to see them hit the production lines when the financials make sense. Microsoft is staying silent, declining to comment on the cost-reduced processor.
    Attached Images Attached Images xbox_oneifixit.jpg

  2. #2 SP
    Admin MonkY's Avatar
    Hehehe... Fast & Furious Two

    Sincer, miniaturizarea era de asteptat... asta inseamna temperaturi mai mici, consum si zgomot redus. Si eventual si costuri de fabricatie scazute (intra mai multe per wafer). Insa performante crescute ma indoiesc profund ca vom vedea. Nu pentru ca nu ar fi posibil, ci pentru ca si-ar bate singuri cuie in talpa. E ca si cand ar da deoparte cei aproape 10 milioane de cumparatori... iar asa ceva nu se face.

  3. #3 SP
    Cons. Mercedes-Benz djleo666's Avatar
    5 milioane nu 10 si o temperatura mai mica inseamna potential de overclocking mai mare. Ai uitat ca pana la lansare au facut overclocking la Xbox One? PLus in articol scria ceva interesant de un potential de folosire a memoriilor DDR4.

  4. #4 SP
    Admin MonkY's Avatar
    Aveau vreo 6 milioane de console vandute deja... presupun ca va mai dura pana va intra in productie cu noul procesor (cu siguranta nu in 2014)... prin urmare se vor face vreo 10. Si nu, exact asta spuneam... nu au cum sa scoata o versiune "overclockata" sau cu DDR4, pentru ca e ca si cand ar spune propriilor cumparatori (cei 10 milioane): "Ce fraieri ati fost ca ati cumparat varianta beta". Si repet, asa ceva nu se face.

  5. #5 SP
    Banned cryyo's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by MonkY View Post
    E ca si cand ar da deoparte cei aproape 10 milioane de cumparatori... iar asa ceva nu se face.
    Astept "sa se faca" ca sa ma numar pintre urmatorii 15mil care or achizitiona noua consola upgradata. Uraaa, astept sa vad ca se confirma.
    Nu cred ca asta 'da deoparte' vechii cumparatori, ci vrea sa faca altii fericiti

  6. #6 SP
    Junior Member crotzo's Avatar
    Exista precedent la imbunatatirea hardware-ului unei console, este de anul acesta, se numeste New Nintendo 3DS si nu este vorba despre display sau un analog in plus ci chiar despre dublarea vitezei procesorului si a cantitatii memoriei ram

  7. #7 SP
    Member blondutzu's Avatar
    cum a spus si Monky, visati cu ochii deschisi...ar fi cel mai mare fail din istoria Microsoft si se vor alege cu 0 Xboxuri vandute generatia urmatoare pentru ca...la un momentdat o sa vina una mai buna.

    LE ^^ala nu e precedent...e lectie de viata, atat cat i-a mai ramas lui Nintendo

  8. #8 SP
    Member BlackSnake's Avatar
    New Nintendo 3ds e cum a fost trecerea de la PSP 1000 la 2000 cand au dublat memoria ram si au marit frecventa la procesor si in continuare au mers jocurile pe toate variantele de psp. Nu o sa se intampla ceva major nici la Xbox One. Cei care si-au luat Xbox One de la inceput or sa poate sa joace orice iese pe platforma pana la final cu siguranta.

  9. #9 SP
    Member MENTATAL0R's Avatar
    Daca era ceva upgrade la placa video insemna schimbare majora..

  10. #10 SP
    Junior Member crotzo's Avatar

  11. #11 SP
    Member BlackSnake's Avatar
    Nu stiam asta cu Xenoblade. Ar fi bine sa nu continue si pe alte platforme treaba asta.

  12. #12 SP
    Member felixanu's Avatar
    Pai si cum ramane cu cei care au cumparat deja Xbox one? Vi se pare ok ce se intampla?

  13. #13 SP
    Admin MonkY's Avatar
    felixanu: eu imi mentin pozitia ca o sa se intample asa cum a fost si la generatia trecuta de Xbox 360. Unde au avansat tehnologic fara a modifica performanta. Ce a facut Nintendo oricum e o varza (cu carne) si cred ca seria 3DS/XL e cel mai incurcat exemplu de "asa nu".

    Pe de alta parte, chiar daca sunt posesor de X1... as zice "La naiba! Sa scoata ceva 2x faster now!". Ar fi chiar o lovitura, pentru ca nu a mai facut nimeni treaba asta in lumea consolelor... la un an de la lansare. Si ar fi faster, better, cheaper... La naiba, daca as fi in locul lor as face un fel de versiune "Premium", cu SSD (sau macar SSHD) de 2TB... eventual DDR4, CPU/GPU 2-4x faster. I-as zice Xbox 4K si mi-as baga picioarele incercand un fresh start. Ma tem insa ca nu asa se procedeaza in lumea asta...

  14. #14 SP
    Senior Member tudomih's Avatar
    N-au cum sa faca asta, s-ar contrazice in toate aspectele, si-ar pune singuri piedica, nu ar mai prezenta incredere etc.

  15. #15 SP
    Admin MonkY's Avatar
    tudomih: asa am zis si eu... insa pe de alta parte poate asa ceva ar trebui ca sa-i castige pe fanii concurentei... In ziua de azi putina nebunie nu strica.

  16. #16 SP
    Senior Member Mayhem's Avatar
    Vis-a-vis de acest aspect, trebuiau sa se implice mai mult in dezvoltarea noilor console ambele companii, nu doar sa comande hardware de la AMD si gata, generatia trecuta atat Sony cat si MS s-au implicat mai mult si amandoua platformele au iesit puternice in the long run ca sa zic asa, generatia asta au mers pe ideea ca arhitectura cat mai similara pt pc comandam la AMD ca e mai ieftin si gata. I dunno poate au iesit ei mai ieftin asa dar de generatia trecuta ni s-a promis 1080p cu 60 de cadre, insa mai important as vrea sa vad o revolutie la gameplay, sa fie cat mai organic totul, parca sa simt ca eu sunt acolo si eu fac lucrul x sau y... si nu ma refer la hannibal lecter style cu casca vr etc.

  17. #17 SP
    Member Kratos's Avatar
    Din pacate asa se intampla cand in loc sa alegi un CPU si GPU custom, gandite speciale pentru tine, tu alegi o solutie de compromis. Eu am crezut ca trecerea de la arhitecturi ciudate la x86 o sa le usureze enorm munca, dar daca ma uit la ce se intampla in ultima vreme cu PS4 si ale sale probleme si vad ca le-a luat un an ca sa faca un amarat de player, si acela mai limitat decat orice am vazut pana acum pe un telefon.

    Au mers pe ideea de ieftin si usor de produs in cantitati mari, dar nu s-au gandit ca totusi trebuia hardware sa tina cel putin 5 ani. Si din punctul meu de vedere niciuna din console nu e gandita pentru termen lung. Dar poate se trezeste Nintendo si vine cu ceva altfel.

  18. #18 SP
    Senior Member Mayhem's Avatar
    Daca se pastreaza standardul de grafica pe care l-am vazut in killzone shadowfall, battlefield 4, witcher 3 si forza, si ambii producatori sa implementeze direct x 12 si sa vina cu scule de development cat mai eficiente s-ar putea sa vedem o durata de viata comparabila cu ps3/xbox360. Totul depinde de compromis vs orgoliu.

  19. #19 SP
    Admin MonkY's Avatar
    Presupun ca esti constient de faptul ca Sony n-are cum sa vina cu DirectX 12... fiind tehnologie proprietara Microsoft

    Also, s-a dezumflat un pic balonul cu DX12... daca initial se discuta de 2x performanta pe hardware vechi, din ultimele prezentari s-a terminat cu upgrade-ul de performanta - vor fi doar efecte mai multe si mai bune. Acum ramane sa vina si cei de la OpenGL (care apropos, nu mai sunt Silicon Graphics ci Khronos Group) si sa anunte ca nici ei nu se mai axeaza pe performanta, ci pe calitate...

  20. #20 SP
    Senior Member Mayhem's Avatar
    La fel cum este si blu ray ceva proprietar Sony pe care Microsoft il foloseste in Xbox One, asa ca ar putea sa invete unii de la altii mai mult for za people that put money in their pockets

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