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Thread: Epic Games, Inc. v. Apple, Inc.

  1. #1 SP
    Manager paul's Avatar

    Exclamation Epic Games, Inc. v. Apple, Inc.

    About This Case

    Plaintiff Epic Games, Inc. brings this action against defendant Apple Inc., alleging violations of antitrust laws through its Apple App Store policies on iOS devices. Apple counterclaims that Epic Games has breached its developer agreements and App Store guidelines by introducing a direct pay option on iOS devices in Epic Games’ videogame Fortnite.
    Epic Games, Inc. v. Apple Inc. | United States District Court, Northern District of California

    Aveti acolo "Selected case documents of special interest:" si "Link to party exhibits and demonstratives: http://tinyurl.com/epicvapple".

    Pe forum prima oara am postat despre proces aici: http://www.consolegames.ro/forum/f81...ml#post1484128. De citit postarea asta: http://www.consolegames.ro/forum/f81...ml#post1484483.

    Din documentele din Box am aflat:
    1. Walmart Project Storm - http://www.consolegames.ro/forum/f17...ml#post1521586
    2. Cat au costat jocurile gratuite / Fraude cu jocuri Ubisoft - http://www.consolegames.ro/forum/f17...ml#post1521590
    3. Fortnite a facut $9 miliarde in 2018-2019 / Colaborari de succes / Cross-wallet Xbox-PC / Discutie despre Fortlite - http://www.consolegames.ro/forum/f60...ml#post1521592
    4. Negociere cu Sony pentru cross-play / Sony cross-play revenue share - http://www.consolegames.ro/forum/f60...ml#post1521557 si http://www.consolegames.ro/forum/f60...ml#post1521576
    5. 12% revenue cut pe Xbox / 12% cu game streaming pe PC / 3 exclusivitati indie - http://www.consolegames.ro/forum/f12...ml#post1521431
    6. Intelegerea pentru Borderlands 3 - $146 milioane - poza 2
    7. Posibile exclusivitati pe Epic Games Store pemtru Dead Island 2 si Saints Row 5 - poza 3
    8. Nintendo nu lucreaza cu cine e afiliat cu Anti-Social Forces in Japonia, adica Yakuza - poza 4
    9. xCloud pe alte console - http://www.consolegames.ro/forum/f12...ml#post1521674
    10. Review Last of Us Part II de Xbox Portfolio Team - http://www.consolegames.ro/forum/f11...ml#post1521433

    O sa mai postez ce mai gasesc.

    Thread cu ce se intampla in sedinte: https://twitter.com/thedextriarchy/s...26192075726849.
    Attached Images Attached Images epic_games_v_apple_logos.png epic_games_store_borderlands_3_deal.png epic_games_store_dead_island_2_saints_row_5_possible_exclusivity.png epic_games_nintendo_yakuza_clause.png

  2. #2 SP
    Banned Alex Khan's Avatar
    Cam cat vor fi despagubirile?

  3. #3 SP
    Manager paul's Avatar
    Epic nu cere despagubiri.
    La un moment dat Apple a cerut cei 30% pierduti cu platitle facute direct prin Epic si s-a respins.

  4. #4 SP
    Why so serious ? razvanrazy's Avatar
    Eu sunt de parere ca-i absolut imposibil sa castige Epic. Efectiv nu doar ca au incalcat contractul pe care l-au semnat, dar au incercat sa-si bata si joc facand asta, avand totul pregatit cu procesul intentant instant.
    Pentru ei a fost un fel de gluma dusa la extrem.

    Si sper sincer, ca si daca prin cine stie ce minune ar castiga Epic, sa nu mai intre niciodata Fortnite in AppStore din principiu si pentru a descuraja orice astfel de incercari abuzive.

  5. #5 SP
    Banned Alex Khan's Avatar
    Si daca Apple le intenteaza un proces si cer ei despagubiri?

  6. #6 SP
    Manager paul's Avatar
    Aveti rabdare.
    Contractul l-au incalcat, asta e clar, dar nu e vorba despre asta.
    Trebuie dat un verdict daca un asemenea contract poate exista in primul rand, daca Apple actioneaza legal in distribuirea aplicatiilor si procesarea platilor din interiorul aplicatiilor.
    Daca Epic castiga, Apple trebuie sa faca altfel contractele, si cel mai probabil revine Fortnite in App Store.
    Daca Epic pierde, depinde de Apple si Epic cum vor actiona in consecinta.

  7. #7 SP
    Member dronology's Avatar

  8. #8 SP
    Banned Alex Khan's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by paul View Post
    Daca Epic pierde, depinde de Apple si Epic cum vor actiona in consecinta.
    Apple in mod sigur va reactiona cu deschiderea unui proces si are toate sansele sa-l castige si sa-i ceara despagubiri mari lui Epic pentru incalcarea contractului.

  9. #9 SP
    Why so serious ? razvanrazy's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by paul View Post
    ...Trebuie dat un verdict daca un asemenea contract poate exista in primul rand...
    Normal ca poate exista. Daca eu imi fac un telefon cu propriul OS si prin multa munca si marketing bun si produse bune, in 2-3-5-20 de ani ajunge ceva ffff bun si folosit de populatie, e meritul meu, deci contractul il fac eu cum doresc eu. Desigur, prin eu = echipa care se ocupa de asta in interesele mele.
    Cine vrea sa vina la mine in sistem, trebuie sa respecte conditiile impuse de mine. Daca nu, esti liber sa mergi unde vrei tu.

    Personal, daca as fi fost in locul Apple, asa cum am zis mai sus, Epic si tot ce tine de ei zbura instant si nu mai aveau vreo sansa sa revina. Cu sau fara proces, la urma urmei, e vorba de sistemul meu si eu nu-i mai vreau acolo.
    De fapt, asta zice si contractul, ca acel cont de developer si tot ce implica el, este removed si pa.
    Dar pentru ca Epic este un cocosel dar si mielusel, nu a respectat contractul si nu-i convine nici cand Apple impune consecintele pe care Epic le-a acceptat in contract, asa ca se duce la mami si zice "maaaaamiiiiiii, omul rau mi-a sters jocul pentru ca eu nu am fost cuminte si nu am respectat intelegerea"

    Si da, orice ar fi, cu siguranta Apple poate face un proces separat pentru a cere despagubiri pentru tot circul asta in care i-au bagat si toata publicitatea negativa pe care le-au facut-o.

  10. #10 SP
    Member Antiohh's Avatar
    Posibil sa fie considerate abuzive clauzele. Lumea deseori asociaza firmele private si capitalismul cu ,,fac ce vreau eu,, , dar nu e mereu chiar asa. Bancile au pierdut multe procese pe clauze considerate abuzive, chiar daca clientii au semnat ca sunt de acord cu ele.

    Epic cel mai probabil a facut circul asta intentionat, asa e. Dar in lume trebuie sa existe si ceva numit concurenta. Daca o firma detine monopol pe piata si profita de cei mici, cei mici nu s-ar mai dezvolta veci si ramane jucator adevarat pe piata doar firma-monopol. Cum ai zis si tu, e meritul lor ca au devenit atat de buni, dar organele de reglementare de regula incearca sa ii mai domoleasca pe aia foarte sus ca sa faca loc si celor mai mici sa se se dezvolte.

  11. #11 SP
    Member dronology's Avatar
    Să nu uităm că Epic are un proces similar cu Google pentru ”anti-competitive practices”: Epic is suing Google over Fortnite’s removal from the Google Play Store

    Quote Originally Posted by The New York Times
    Epic’s lawyers said the lawsuit was not just about Epic and Fortnite but about fairness for all apps that must use Apple’s App Store to reach consumers.

    “Our contention in this case is that all apps are at issue,” said Katherine Forrest, a lawyer at Cravath, Swaine & Moore.

    Epic is not asking for a payout if it wins the trial; it is seeking relief in the form of changes to App Store rules. Epic has asked Apple to allow app developers to use other methods to collect payments and open their own app stores within their apps.

    Apple has countered that these demands would raise a world of new issues, including making iPhones less secure.

    On Tuesday afternoon, Benjamin Simon, founder of Yoga Buddhi, which makes the Down Dog Yoga app, testified about his company’s problems with Apple’s policies. Mr. Simon said that he had to charge more for subscriptions on the App Store to make up for the 30 percent fee that Apple charged him, and that Apple’s rules prevented him from promoting inside his app a cheaper price that is available on the web.

    Mr. Simon said Apple warned app developers against speaking out about its policies in guidelines for getting their apps approved. “‘If you run to the press and trash us, it never helps,’” he said. “That was in the guidelines.”
    Judge presses Epic on the impact of its antitrust suit against Apple.

    În același context:

    Quote Originally Posted by BBC
    Apple has been charged with breaking EU competition rules over the way it runs its App Store.

    European Commission anti-trust regulator Margrethe Vestager tweeted that "consumers are losing out".

    It relates to charges brought two years ago by music streaming app Spotify which claimed that Apple was stifling innovation in that industry.

    Apple faces a large fine and may be forced to change its policies if its arguments do not convince regulators.

    Previously it has denied any wrong-doing.

    The case is looking specifically at how its App Store policies affect music streaming. The charge was initially filed in 2019 by co-founder of Spotify Daniel Ek, who said that Apple was "limiting choice and stifling innovation".

    "Apple's rules distort competition in the market for music streaming by raising the costs of competing music streaming app developers. This in turn leads to higher prices for consumers for their in-app music subscriptions on iOS devices," an EC statement said.

    In response, Apple said it did not receive any commission on 99% of Spotify's subscribers.

    "At the core of this case is Spotify's demand they should be able to advertise alternative deals on their iOS app, a practice that no store in the world allows," it said in a statement.

    "Once again, they want all the benefits of the App Store but don't think they should have to pay anything for that. The Commission's argument on Spotify's behalf is the opposite of fair competition."

    Alexander Holland, chief content and strategy officer at music streaming platform Deezer said he was pleased with the Commission's findings.

    "It's an important step towards a fair competitive landscape where dominant market players like Apple have to compete with independent companies like Deezer on quality of service, innovation and consumer experience, rather than artificially created barriers and a lack of a level playing field."

    Earlier Ms Vestager tweeted that the preliminary conclusion of the EC was that "Apple was in breach of EU competition law" and "charges high commission fees on rivals in the App Store and forbids them to inform of alternatives".
    Apple charged over 'anti-competitive' app policies

  12. #12 SP
    Manager paul's Avatar
    Ziua 1:

    Partile:

    Epic Games:
    - Apple a creat intentionat un "walled garden" ca sa stranga cat mai mult bani in jurul unui produs ce il vand pe profit, iPhone
    - Apple justifica lipsa a third-party payment options pe motive de siguranta, dar executivul App Store Matt Fischer spune ca nu au facut nici un studiu pe tema aceasta
    - Apple spune ca 30% e standard, dar lucrurile nu mai sunt asa, plus ca este loc de negocieri, lucru pe care Apple nu il face
    - alegerile Apple sunt bazate pe politicile proprii, nu pe pret sau siguranta
    - Apple nu s-a oprit la 30%, a mai adaugat moduri de a lua bani de la developeri, desi App Store e pe profit
    - un "Venus Flytrap" ecosystem construit peste developeri, carora le este greu sa renunte chiar si cu clauze rele
    - 30% este doar o decizie unilaterala, care nu este corelat cu ce se intampla in piata, deci o abordare monopolistica
    - problemele cu app review, in special de siguranta
    - optiuni limitate sa mergi intr-un alt ecosystem (Android) asa ca distributia de aplicatii pe iOS n-ar trebui sa fie monopolistica

    Apple:
    - "secure and integrated ecosystem" - creat tocmai pentru a atrage clienti si developeri
    - Epic, o companie de miliarde, nu vrea sa plateasca pentru inovatiile Apple
    - inainte aplicatiile aveau doua variante, free si paid - cu IAP (in-app purchases) au ascultat developerii si e o imbunatatire
    - Steam face la fel cu 30% --(Valve e data in judecata zilele acestea tocmai pe aceasta tema)
    - 84% din aplicatii sunt free
    - web services (adica prin browser) sunt competitive cu aplicatiile native
    - sunt putini jucatori de Fortnite pe iOS - dintre acestia, putini sunt cei care cumpara V-Bucks - daca vor, pot cumpara pe alta platforma pentru ca accepta cross-wallet --(e mai ieftin direct de la Epic, practic ceri 30% doar ca sa fii tu procesatorul, la un pret mai mare)
    - nu e datoria lor sa lucreze cu un competitor - un third-party store facut cu Apple IP
    - small businesses platesc mai putin de 30% --(lucru recent, in functie de incasari)
    - daca nu mai e App Store exclusivity se renunta la un layer of security
    - daca Epic castiga, si celelalte ecosystems will fall

    Marturii:

    1. Tim Sweeney, CEO Epic Games:
    - lipsa competitiei intre Stores pe iOS - exista doar App Store
    - comisionul de 30% pentru in-app purchases
    - nu se pot face refunds
    - lucreaza cu GeForce Now ca sa aduca Fortnite pe iOS, dar e mai slaba experienta fata de o aplicatie nativa
    - intrebat care e diferenta intre 30% pentru Apple si 30% pentru Microsoft/Nintendo/Sony - consolele se vand in pierdere si au nevoie de developeri, iPhone e profitabil
    - intrebat daca au mai incalcat regulile pana acum si raspunde ca nu
    - contractul este non-negociable si de aceea i-au contactat pe cei de la Apple ca sa gasesca o solutie general valabila - lucru care in media a fost fals catalogat ca tratament special
    - intrebat daca un scop e app sideloading, raspunde ca da

    Ziua 2:

    Marturii:

    1. Tim Sweeney, CEO Epic Games:
    - Apple a acceptat cross-play si cross-wallet
    - Nintendo si Sony nu au cross-wallet
    - cu Sony au facut intelegere pe revenue share pentru cross-play
    - in-app purchases sunt importante pentru ca Fortnite e un metaverse
    - daca pierd, probabil ca nu o sa mai fie pe iOS

    2. Benjamin Simon, CEO Yoga Buddhi
    - Down Dog - aplicatie de yoga cu subscriptie
    - arata emailuri de la clienti care spun ca e mai ieftin sa cumpere din afara App Store
    - nu au voie sa puna in aplicatie informatia ca e mai ieftin daca se aboneaza pe site
    - trebuie sa astepti mult pana un update la aplicatie este reviewed
    - contractul este non-negociable, considera ca iOS este o platforma importanta pentru succesul lor
    - 50% din userii iOS se aboneaza in aplicatie, 10% in cazul Android - acestia platesc mai mult fata de restul care se aboneaza pe site
    - initial nici Google nu i-a lasat sa le spuna oamenilor ca e mai ieftin sa se aboneze pe site, dupa care n-au mai impus regula
    - cand apare informatia aceasta in aplicatie, numarul abonatilor creste cu 28%
    - au vrut sa ofere free trial fara payment info - aplicatia e respinsa - posteaza pe Twitter, Apple se razgandeste
    - intrebat daca poti intra pe Safari pe siteul lor sa te abonezi, raspunde ca da si ca este relativ usor tot procesul

    3. Aashish Patel, director of product management, Nvidia:
    - intrebat de ce GeForce Now nu are aplicatie nativa, raspunde ca Apple a respins-o
    - initial aplicatia a fost aprobata, dupa care a fost respinsa
    - intrebat daca Apple incearca sa-i blocheze daca ofera serviciul prin Safari, raspunde ca nu

  13. #13 SP
    Manager paul's Avatar
    Ziua 3:

    Marturii:

    1. Aashish Patel, director of product management, Nvidia:
    --(intrebari tehnice despre streaming si web app - native app)

    2. Lori Wright, VP of Xbox business development, Microsoft:
    - consolele Xbox se vand pe pierdere
    - Xbox e in competitie cu PlayStation mai mult, cu Switch mai putin - nu e in competitie cu iPhone sau iPad --(pe partea de cloud e in competitie cu Google, Amazon, etc.)
    - modelul de business e construit pe 30% ca sa ajunga pe profit - Xbox este specific-purposed, PC este general-purpose si piata este mai mica fata de Windows
    - xCloud - si-au dorit ca lansarea sa fie initial pe mobile, lucru ce s-a intamplat, dar doar pe Android, cu aplicatie nativa
    - au incercat sa faca aplicatie pe iOS, s-au consultat cu Apple care le-au sugerat sa urmeze modelele Netflix sau Audible, dupa care li s-a spus ca nu e bine asa - au revenit si li s-a spus sa mearga pe un model gamecloud, unde fiecare joc trebuie descarcat pe telefon
    - Spotify are multe piese, Netflix multe filme intr-o aplicatie de streaming - Microsoft nu inteleg de ce ei nu au voie sa aiba multe jocuri intr-o aplicatie de streaming
    - si-au dat seama ca modelul gamecloud nu e bun
    - recurg la a colabora cu echipa Safari si fac un web app pe iOS, adica accesezi xCloud prin browser
    - o consecinta, nedorita de Microsoft, e ca Apple a scos aplicatia celor de la Shadow (tot game streaming) din App Store --(aici cumva e din nou in atentie modul in care aplicatiile primesc/li se revoca aprobarea)
    - de-a lungul lifespanului unei generatii de Xbox, tot pe pierdere se vinde o consola, chiar daca scade costul de productie --(nu e clar daca referinta e pretul original sau redus)

    3. Andrew Grant, engineering fellow, Epic Games:
    --(intrebari tehnice de development cu scopul de a demonstra ca e o mare diferenta intre o web app si o native app)
    --(intrebari tehnice despre developer program, app submission si review)

    - Emailuri intre Sweeney si Rosenberg despre Fortnite interoperatibility si eSports - pozele 1-7
    - Calculele Microsoft despre cat profit fac marii jucatori din industrie, in 2019 - pozele 8-9
    - Mark Rein, co-founder Epic Games, nemultumit ca Microsoft oversells AR, cum au facut cu HoloLens - poza 10
    Attached Images Attached Images epic_games_fortnite_sweeney_rosenberg_01.jpg epic_games_fortnite_sweeney_rosenberg_02.jpg epic_games_fortnite_sweeney_rosenberg_03.jpg epic_games_fortnite_sweeney_rosenberg_04.jpg epic_games_fortnite_sweeney_rosenberg_05.jpg epic_games_fortnite_sweeney_rosenberg_06.jpg epic_games_fortnite_sweeney_rosenberg_07.jpg microsoft_cy2019_game_industry_profit_01.jpg microsoft_cy2019_game_industry_profit_02.jpg epic_games_mark_rein_microsoft_ar_01.jpg

  14. #14 SP
    Member dronology's Avatar
    Epic Vs Apple Explained


  15. #15 SP
    Manager paul's Avatar
    ​Ziua 4:

    Marturii:

    1. Thomas Ko, ​​head of business and strategy for online services, Epic Games:
    --(discutii despre payment processing pe Epic Games Store)
    - vor sa implementeze "smart pricing solutions", ca protectie pentru "unprotected volatility of foreign currencies"
    - worldwide, media comisioanelor procesatorilor pentru Epic e de 4.2%, in US 3.5%

    2. Matthew Fischer, VP of App Store, Apple:
    --(detalii despre App Store)

    3. Trystan Kosmynka, senior director of marketing, Apple:
    --(detalii despre app review)
    - Roblox nu e joc, ci experiente intr-o aplicatie --(in App Store e trecut la games)
    - Minecraft e joc

    ​​Ziua 5:

    Marturii:

    1. Trystan Kosmynka, senior director of marketing, Apple:
    --(detalii despre app review)

    2. Steven Allison, VP and general manager of Epic Games Store, Epic Games:
    --(detalii despre game revenue sharing si publishing pe PC)
    --(detalii despre Epic Games Store)
    - 14 proiecte in lucru, cu exclusivitate

    3. Matthew Weissinger, VP of marketing, Epic Games:
    --(detalii despre marketing)

    S-a discutat si despre magazinul itch.io, care e si pe EGS. Apple a spus ca include "offensive content", "unspeakeable games".
    Reactia itch.io:

  16. #16 SP
    Member dronology's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by VGC
    Epic Games offered a $200m minimum guarantee to Sony for “4-6” PC PlayStation ports.

    That’s according to a confidential PDF document included in the ongoing Epic-Apple trial, which was reportedly briefly uploaded to the case’s public server (and shared on Resetera).

    According to the document, Epic Games was at one point targeting all three console platform holders for potential content deals for its PC games store.

    The document states that Nintendo talks were essentially “a non-starter”, while opening discussions with Microsoft were complicated by the fact that it was essentially a competitor for content deals, and that its PC Game Pass leader was “against” Epic’s strategy.

    On PlayStation, the doc states that Epic was awaiting feedback on its $200m minimum guarantee offer for “4-6 games”, which would see Epic take the hit should those titles generate less revenue than that figure.

    Since Sony’s first PC port, Horizon Zero Dawn, debuted on Steam – and its next Days Gone, is also coming to Valve’s platform – it’s possible the company did not take up Epic’s offer.

    In a corporate report published last summer, Sony first said it would explore bringing more PlayStation exclusives to PC, following Horizon Zero Dawn’s release on the platform.

    Then earlier this year SIE’s president confirmed PlayStation will bring “a whole slate” of games to PC, starting with a Days Gone port set to release this month.

    Speaking to GQ, SIE boss Jim Ryan said that the opportunity to bring PlayStation’s IPs to a wider audience, as well as an easier port process, meant that making more games for PC was now “a fairly straightforward decision” for the company.

    Asked why SIE is now embracing PC, whereas before it was hesitant to bring its games to the platform, Ryan said: “I think a few things changed.

    “We find ourselves now in early 2021 with our development studios and the games that they make in better shape than they’ve ever been before. Particularly from the latter half of the PS4 cycle our studios made some wonderful, great games.

    “There’s an opportunity to expose those great games to a wider audience and recognise the economics of game development, which are not always straightforward. The cost of making games goes up with each cycle, as the calibre of the IP has improved.

    “Also, our ease of making it available to non-console owners has grown. So it’s a fairly straightforward decision for us to make.”

    PlayStation had a strong start with its first modern PC release, with Horizon Zero Dawn selling 716,000 copies digitally during its August release month, according to Nielsen’s SuperData.

    According to another document released as part of the Epic-Apple case, Epic Games spent nearly $12 million securing games for its regular free game giveaways during a nine-month period.
    Epic Games offered $200m deal to Sony for ‘up to 6’ PC PlayStation ports but Nintendo talks “a non-starter”, leaked document suggests

  17. #17 SP
    Member dronology's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by gamesindustry.biz
    I love a good games industry lawsuit.

    The games industry is an absurd place, and nothing shows this off more than a legal battle.

    Without lawsuits, we never would have found about Rockstar Games co-founder Sam Houser begging Rockstar North president Leslie Benzies to help fix the troubled development of Red Dead Redemption by proclaiming, "I need The Benz!"

    Who could have guessed that before Activision fired Infinity Ward co-founders Jason West and Vince Zampella, they were the type to sign off emails with "Boom boom pow. Away."?

    How else would we know about Gearbox's Randy Pitchford leaving a USB drive of company information and pornography at a Medieval Times in Dallas? (I mean, other than him talking about it on a podcast.)

    If you can get past the idea of people weaponizing the legal system not just to establish wrongdoing but to invade privacy and subject their rivals to public embarrassment, there's some fun to be had here.

    And this week's Epic v. Apple trial has had it all. Embarrassing and incriminating emails entered into evidence, people forced to take absurd positions rather than concede the mildest of points, people struggling to establish legal definitions for what and a judge who seems frequently exasperated by having to deal with all of our gaming nonsense.

    We've even had accidental disclosures of sealed documents, as the publicly accessible site of exhibits in the case has on multiple occasions posted emails and documents it shouldn't have and then removed them, but not before the secrets had been spilled.

    Let's dig in.
    Epic v. Apple shows games industry at its most absurd: Minecraft isn't a game, Sony is tearing friendships apart, Apple taking 30% makes the world a better place, and other dubious claims aired in court

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